Grimrock

What are you getting upset for? I can read you know! The major influence is relevant! AH state it is "inspired" by several games, some more than others, but it's a "tribute" to DM.

If you are familiar with AH you should know that Petri wrote an article about it at www.dungeon-master.com in 2001:

'm developing a new DM clone called 'Dungeon Master 2000' (just a project name - the final game will not be called this).

EDIT: This project is now called 'Escape from Dragon Mountain' - B.

Of course Legend of Grimrock isn't a clone anymore. It outgrew DM by far

Who said anything about being upset? I'm simply pointing out that LoG being a tribute to more than just DM is not a point of opinion up for debate. It is stated multiple times that the game was influenced by more than just DM.

Look at the first blog entry on this site and you'll see, "This image is not just a gorgeous piece of art but I think it nails down what this game is all about: pure oldschool dungeon exploration, mindblowing puzzles and intense atmosphere in the spirit of classics like Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis." as the third sentence in the blog.

Every reference you see later on concerning the influences that helped to shape and create LoG is also phrased inclusively of the entire old school dungeon crawling genre as a whole. Nowhere do any of the developers claim DM as the sole 'anything' for the game.

As for 'Escape from Dragon Mountain', that is a completely different project from 2001 that was being worked on by a different team of people. Petri may have been part of that team but he was not the entire team for that project or for LoG. Anything related to Escape from Dragon Mountain is connected to that project, not LoG.

Do past projects influence later projects? Of course, but that in no way limits the sources of influence, if anything it would expand it since there is more than just one past project influencing every aspect of the design and construction of the game itself. Yes, some games and projects will have more influence than others, but the team decided to declare that LoG was created in the spirit of classic dungeon crawling games as a whole, not limited to a single game.

Anurias wrote:but the team decided to declare that LoG was created in the spirit of classic dungeon crawling games as a whole, not limited to a single game.

And, there is the difference between what is declared (or self-perception) and external reception. For my perception LoG1 was mostly inspired by DM (80 to 90%?) and only subtle by other titles. Log2 added even another DM characteristics, the character status mechanic, hurted limbs. I think the nameable features of Log which are NOT from DM (or CSB/DM2) are countable in single digit.

Most of the characteristics that are likely to come to mind can be traced back to characteristics that are present in DM, true. However, claiming LoG is a tribute to just that one game is the same as claiming some random modern First Person Shooter is a tribute to the original Wolfenstein 3D. They share a plethora of characteristics but there has been massive amounts of development and influences over the years that extend that to more than just that narrow claim. The only way to know what influences that resonated strongly enough with the developers to make their creation a tribute to those influences are the developers themselves. It's simply not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of the developers stated that LoG was created in the spirit of several games in an entire genre, that is verifiable fact as evidenced by the ability to cite the sources where the developers said it and the exact wording they used to state such.

badhabit wrote: And, there is the difference between what is declared (or self-perception) and external reception. For my perception ....

From your perception you are not very good at understanding perception. The topic is about declaration from the creators, not about personal perception. That is what the original author (Frenchie) was referring to. Granted since Frenchie's premise was proven wrong, instead of just admitting the error or remaining silent, he chose to take this "my perseption" route. Which in turn causes lil fella's like yourself to fumble your way in to a discussion and now we are fully derailed.

Well, the fact is that Frenchie originally asked if AH would be taking other games in to consideration. That is a question of AH's declaration. Arguing, in turn, about your own perception is completely irrelevant and only proves that neither your nor Frenchie can stay focused on the actual topic. Kinda like a little kitty cat chasing a lazer pointer.

I doubt anyone really cares that Frenchie and badhabit purposely ignore AH's declaration of multi-game inspirations. There a few articles on the web that mention the perception of Dungeon Master players being like a religious cult. This thread sorta proves that, to the point that Frenchie and badhabit could be considered blind fanatics of a single old-school dungeon crawler. Kinda scary really

In Dungeon Master, your characters will literally die when they are starving. That is not the case at all in Grimrock. Therefore, Grimrock was clearly only partially inspired by Dungeon Master - hence the other 3 games who also inspired it.

I don't know if i followed correctly this thread but LoG1 seems to me heavily influnced to EOB1. In that sense it pays a tribute to probably the best dungeon crawler ever, Eye of the Beholder.
Even the scenario follows EOB1:

- Party is trapped in both games
- An unknown, hidden evil lurks in the very depths. In both cases that Evil interacts with the party, either with written transcriptions (remember that "Welcome" from EOB1 that given you a fireball?) and sleep talk (LOG1)
- After the finale, an exit is appearing (EOB1) and mountain collapses (LOG1)

Ultima Underworld 1 could be considered a tribute as well.

That is spot on correct, vlzvl. And Eye of the Beholder is one of the 4 games AH listed as its influence.

Azel wrote:

badhabit wrote: And, there is the difference between what is declared (or self-perception) and external reception. For my perception ....

From your perception you are not very good at understanding perception. The topic is about declaration from the creators, not about personal perception. [....wordy blabla..] Kinda scary really

Indeed, scary as this is infact about reality and not about declarations. And especially not about declarations from Azel, the forum troll.

Azel wrote: In Dungeon Master, your characters will literally die when they are starving. That is not the case at all in Grimrock. Therefore, Grimrock was clearly only partially inspired by Dungeon Master - hence the other 3 games who also inspired it.

Sure thing mister, one difference in a still copied DM mechanic ("food") made Log "clearly" not mostly DM inspired. (And this thing was only introduced to cater the recent casual gamers like you, as you liked to complain about the "hard" food constraints) Laughable. I bet you will fail to find more (or at least the same amount) of game mechanic aspects in LoG which are coming from nameable other games then DM.

vlzvl wrote:[...] it pays a tribute to probably the best dungeon crawler ever, Eye of the Beholder.

Sacrilegious! This mere clone couldn't surpass the eternal king, even not in three tries!

badhabit wrote:Indeed, scary as this is infact about reality and not about declarations

Wrong. Personal perception is not reality, it is how one perceives reality. Read a book sometime. This discussions is about declarations that really occurred; reality. You are countering with perception, not reality. For example, you may perceive the water on your leg to be "rain" when it is in fact "urine." See... perception vs reality. I am staying directly on topic with what really occurred (AH declared 4 games as LoG's inspiration), you are dancing around a red herring (you perceive LoG to be inspired by a single game); this makes you the forum troll.

badhabit wrote:Sure thing mister, one difference in a still copied DM mechanic ("food") made Log "clearly" not mostly DM inspired.

All 4 games that AH listed contain food. DM has food and water, and a death penalty for starvation. LoG has food, no water, and no death penalty for starvation. Thus, as reality dictates: LoG is inspired by multiple games.

badhabit wrote:

vlzvl wrote:[...] it pays a tribute to probably the best dungeon crawler ever, Eye of the Beholder.

Sacrilegious! This mere clone couldn't surpass the eternal king, even not in three tries!

Azel wrote:There a few articles on the web that mention the perception of Dungeon Master players being like a religious cult.

Whether you think he's a troll or not you kind of proved him right about about your blind fanaticism.

As for 'reality' and 'declarations'. The reality is that the creator of something is the one who determines what their creation is a tribute to, because they are the ones making it, so the decision for it to be a tribute is theirs and not some fan's decision. So the reality is the AH team stating multiple times, as has already been cited with the original wording and source for independent verification, that the game was made in the spirit of the collective works of the old school dungeon crawlers. Many of those games share characteristics, the sharing of characteristics is what creates a genre. All games of a specific genre share defining characteristics that make up the genre.

If the developers had never played DM or never even heard of it and they started from the experiences of EoB1 and the other games in the genre, listed by them or not, you would still be able to draw similarities to DM simply because much of the mechanics of the genre are the same in all games of the genre. Tracing the origin of a particular mechanic becomes pointless as a result. Most of the mechanics in Dungeon Master can likely be traced back even further to something before a computer game. Is LoG a tribute to that original source? No. It's roots can be traced there, but that's not the inspiration for it and the inspiration is what makes something a tribute. LoG was inspired by the collective works of several games in the old school dungeon crawling genre, so is a tribute to those inspirations.