Grimrock

Before I start I just want to say I adore this game, which I have been looking forward to for almost a year, except for the problem below which has ground me to a halt of extreme, near computer-smashing frustration and made me not want to keep playing

I have been getting exceptionally frustrated when doing the 'press a button and run to somewhere' type puzzles. Unlike games like Dungeon Master, this game doesn't seem to buffer many key presses, so pressing a button on the wall with the mouse and then frantically pressing the keys to turn, run forward 4 times, turn 180 degrees and step sideways twice, for example just doesn't work. The game seems to chose which presses it fancies noticing. I press forward 4 times quickly and it randomly seems to take 2, 3 or even 5 presses - if I'm lucky it take the 4 but rarely. I also find that it is very hard to know when I can press a movement key again to be sure that the game responds to it - I often over or under-shoot in general while playing.

I've been trying to get the Gear Key for 3 hours now of reloading, pressing the button and only once have I made it to the second button to press it, let alone make it off the pits again before they open. To say I am frustrated is an understatement in fact - I am close to bursting into tears that aspects of the game have become impossible when I've been enjoying it so much. I know the Gear Key isn't critical, but some other bits like this have been and were almost as hard, and I don't feel its fair that I miss out on loot/areas because I cannot get the game to respond reliably to me. I've turned every setting I can down to see if it helps but no joy. No my party isnt heavily loaded down, which I would understand making a difference. And its even harder using the arrow buttons on screen.

I don't want the game to be easy, but if the timing puzzles are going to be this tight then making the game more responsive to key presses would help.

Please advise what to do, and please don't troll me, it won't help anybody. I'm 40 years old and grew up with an Amiga playing Dungeon Master, EOB, Black Crypt, Captive, and all the other games like this - I love them - this game was a dream come true, hence my frustration. Thank you.


EDIT: Updates for those who don't want to read this whole thread -

* This game is not intended to buffer key presses - you have to hit the movement keys as required in time with the speed your party naturally moves at. You can't queue up commands - if you try the movement becomes even more unpredictable and erratic.

* Unfortunately there seems for some (mostly on lower specs) that even tho the game is running perfectly, the speed it detects key presses at is in some way out of sync, causing movement delays, lack or movement or even extra movement. The games 'heartbeat' (as someone brilliantly described it) can be slightly out of sync with the UI key press detection 'heartbeat'. Why this is (and why only some people) remains unclear.

* Don't hold keys down - the game does buffer a bit under this circumstance and you will often move one or two times more AFTER you take your finger off.

* One dedicated poster that tested this issue scientifically (as scientifically as it is reasonable possible to do anyway) found distinct variation between Fullscreen and WIndowed. "There seems to be something like a 10% decrease in the actions per heartbeat" in fullscreen mode. Not what you may expect but def worth changing to Windowed (if you're not already) if you're having problems.

**** Turning GFX settings down seems to help the key response for many people - def worth a try if you are having problems - although just how much seems to vary from player to player - presumably because of system differences.

Hope this helps

I agree with you. I don't think the game should be a test of manual dexterity at any point, and I feel the challenge should be entirely on the decisions we make, especially when under pressure. Failure to interface correctly with the keyboard shouldn't come into it.

I was just coming here to post about the lack of key buffering and I read your post. I couldn't agree more. I'm on level 6 in the area with the fire demons that float around. I took care of them, and now I'm faced with a time puzzle that I just can't seem to do. It's the one where you have to push a button off in the distance, and run over to a square pillar with buttons on each side. Pushing one button closes a trap door, and I have to move, turn, push another button, and so forth until I somehow grab the key and scurry across the last trap door. At least I think that's what I'm supposed to do, I'm just so frustrated with this I came here to get a spoiler and be done with it. Point being, this puzzle wouldn't be that bad if there were key buffering. As it is now, I either move too many spaces and end up in a pit, or move to few and run out of time from the delay. Frustrating indeed.

I also agree, up to level 9 and this has been a tad frustrating.

I understand that it may be frustrating, but your manual dexterity IS intended to be tested in games like this. It's why they play this way instead of turn based.

I wonder if there is a timing issue with your hardware making it more difficult it should be, perhaps a timing bug of some kind. That puzzle did not require anything close to a frantic button mashing exercise in my experience, just purposeful movements with no missteps. There's at least a good 2-3 "heartbeat" margin for error in that puzzle, if not more.

I press my next movement key as the party "approaches the stop position" every time and I've never had it fail to register. I think perhaps you need to slow down rather than trying to keep getting faster. The pace isn't really that frantic. The whole game "moves" at a consistent rate, you just need to find that rate and settle into it. Moving extra fast does not help, just like pressing the signaling device on Jeopardy.

Try holding down the forward button in a long hallway. Tap your other finger each time it moves. That's the "heartbeat" this game runs at. You can't change that, no matter how quickly you press buttons. Just learn that rhythm and you should be OK.

I honestly don't understand the problem here and I have never encountered this problem you speak of and I just got to level 9 with the Dismantler in hand.

Almost sounds like you expect to be able to enter 10 key presses in a second and then just sit back and watch the game go through 10 seconds of selections. I'm honestly not trying to be obtuse here, but the game moves forward when you tell it to and sideways when you tell it to. There is a brief period of 'settling' between each step where there is a decent sized window for another key press for continuous motion. Not hard at all.

Basically, the game just doesn't queue steps. It's very simple once you STOP trying to do so. Learn the rhythm as the poster above me says, and only press one button per square. if you're frantically mashing, you're doing it wrong.

jfunk wrote:I understand that it may be frustrating, but your manual dexterity IS intended to be tested in games like this.

I disagree. I've been playing computer games for 30 years. I've rejected each and every 'twich' game I've come across as not enjoyable. I don't play them. Real time strategy games went down the toilet when they turned to twitch games dependent on manual dexterity. I've, instead, enjoyed games with simple interfaces where the challenge is what I decide to do, not what I'm able to force the UI to do through manual dexterity. Dungeon crawlers have never been about mastering the UI to the point where you can do things fast - it's not street fighter II. Of course when the RPG genre went AWOL around the time of Diablo 2 it then became a mouse bashing game and I parted ways with much of it.

Fighting with the user interface is not an immersive experience, it's not something I'm able to accept as a simulation of how difficult it is to cast spells.

It's not a hardware fault - not unless you consider my wrists and fingers to be hardware.

The UI is there to serve as an interface between the user and the game, it should effortlessly do what the player wants to do, it should not be a case of the player fighting the monsters and puzzles and the UI. Certainly a level of aptitude is learned as you play the game, but once you've played for a few hours you should be at that point.

As for that particular puzzle... try doing it without turning. I've not found moving especially difficult, but I've found that being unable to queue movement at all is frustrating. It would be ideal if we could issue the next movement command while the last command is finishing off. I don't know that it would be beneficial to be able to queue several moves up in a buffer.

I think some of you are missing the point. I don't want the game to be easy, I don't neccessarily want to buffer up huge strings of movements (although that can be fun in its own right). I just want it to be consistent and responsive. I get it, some people can do these puzzles just fine (well done), but clearly others of us are having extreme difficulty, and it is because of the way the movement is timed/buffered.

I worked out early on that I had to move at the games in-built speed, which was a tad disappointing as I loved running rings around mobs in DM while whacking them. But it seemed to work ok until I hit the timed puzzles. The first few weren't too tight/too far to move so the issue didn't arise too much but on these where there is a long way/a lot of moves to make it has become utterly impossible. I have tried going slow, going rhythmically etc etc to complete the puzzle I am stuck on and even when ,'joy of joys', the party actually does what I want the pit still opens under me before I can press the second button. A few spare heartbeats? After some hours of trying, with breaks, I still want to smash something and then give up.

If a game is going to test manual dexterity in puzzles (which is fine so long as not overused..) then that is what it should test - not make using the UI reliably a test of manual dexterity itself, which from these reponses seems to be the case. Once I have figured out a what I need to do in a puzzle it shouldn't take me hours to actually do it - I should be able to do it in a reasonable number of attempts. The game should indeed move left when we press left and turn when we press turn. However for me this game doesn't. It only responds (reliably) if you press the movement button after a certain period of time has passed since the last movement command was sent.

I agree with Halk "It would be ideal if we could issue the next movement command while the last command is finishing off. "

This forced delay (IMHO) adds an uneccessary layer of frustration between the player and the game itself that typically these marvellous types of games don't have - and I have played them all, from Dungeon Master & CSB to Abandoned Places, Black Crypt, Bards Tale, Captive, Knightmare, all the EOB, and all the rest.

I think I am especially frustrated because I love this type of game; this was MADE for me. I have been waiting for it eagerly since I first heard about the project a year ago, couldn't get my preorder in fast enough and I love it completely. Except this issue.

Yeah, my other thread was primarily written with the thought of helping older folks or people with naturally lower dexterity (or crappier computers even) but really it could also help people who simply have too much difficulty with these types of puzzles.

And while I'm the first to say NO to making the game a cakewalk or reducing difficulty just to dumb it down, I *really* don't think people should be so quick to jump all over people who ask for timing/dexterity aspects to be changed a bit. The whole "well I had zero problems and thought it was fun so suck it" attitude is a bit weaksauce imo.

As others have said, people come to LoG for different reasons. Some people may love the monster difficulty and atmosphere and thought-provoking puzzles and food management, but really, really, REALLY dislike the split-second twitch nature of the timed puzzles. To argue that the game HAS to involve razor-thin margins for error in pit timing or else it's ruined is just ridiculous - a LOT of people love dungeon crawlers precisely because they can get away from twitch games (see: every first person shooter in existence) and really just want a cerebral exercise.

And again, it would be best if this could just be an OPTION to reduce the speed of these types of puzzles, not remove them altogether or change them from everybody. I totally get why some people would love these puzzles exactly as-is, but the option to add a bit of leeway to the timing would be very welcome I think.

The timer based puzzles are probably the hardest in the game, amplified by the fact that there is a distinct buffering of movement. To play devils advocate though, I think changing it would completely destroy the design of the game itself.

Movement is well timed, in a set matrix of cubes. It is a key of how combat is done, and why you can easily get surrounded and boxed in. Yes you can enter keys faster than the character will move in the game, but if the character would move instantly to every press there is no way to balance out the enemies. Right now the game is completely even. My characters move as fast as your characters which moves relatively fast to certain and only slightly fast to some flying mob. The relationships are set to the designers exact specifications.

With instant presses how would you balance any of that out?