Set bonus lost when shields are in non-active weapon slot.

[Dr.Disaster]

The OP is not requesting to have set bonuses for inactive items, nor is he requesting an "infinitely reusable health potion", as has been repeatedly claimed in this thread. The request is to not be arbitrarily penalized for using the built-in game feature of "alternate weapon slots" in a game where swapping items and inventory management is a prominent and important feature. If you are holding a +50 Health in one hand and have full HP, switch away from it, then switch back, you should remain at full HP. If you were holding that +50 Health item, but take damage for 75, switch away from the item, then back, you certainly should still have maximum HP minus 75.

What I would propose is that, when you remove any item that provides +Health or +Energy, there is a 2 to 3 second window where the game 'remembers' you were wearing the item and, if re-equipped during this small window, it would return you to your original values (minus any damage or energy use that may have occurred, obviously). No "infinitely reusable health potions" here, no set bonuses for inactive items here, just an actual reason to use those alternate hand slots.

That approach doesn't really work, since it would kill you for switching away from the item with less than 50 current HP. I can't think of a sensible approach other than keeping the character at the same percentage of max HP, such that putting on a +50 health item with 1/50 HP would leave you at 2/100 HP, and putting it on with 50/50 HP would leave you at 100/100 HP.

Since the game currently does not kill you when removing a +Health item at low health, why would it be any different with the proposed changes? This is only an issue that occurs when you are at full Health/Energy anyways.

Because it's an abuse of items.

Let's take a look at what the weapon slots are. The active set are the characters 2 hand slots to place items in to use and the inactive set are 2 inventory slots reserved to quick-swap-in any preset items. In other words: the weapon sets slots are a comfort feature to spare the players the need to move items between character hands and characters inventory as they has to do in LoG1.

Now when an item is removed from your hand it is removed from your equipment so anything happening by that applies. If you want to shoot an arrow but just stuffed them away well sorry but no more shooting and when your weapon granted you a rage buff that's gone with it too. The item is simply away with all consequences.

Now items can grant a health/energy buff in two ways:
- the proposed way by increasing both actual and maximum health/energy
- the LoG way by increasing the maximum health/energy only

The only ways to increase actual health/energy in LoG is by regeneration over time, resting, with potions, a crystal or item charges.

The proposed way is both a cheesy way to buff a badly hurt character instantly and a very dangerous way because the removal of a buff item by a weapon set switch can instantly kill(!) that character, depending on how low he/she is on total health. With the LoG way an accidental character death by removing a buff item is not possible.

[sapientCrow]

To be honest they should of just made 2 or 4 slot quick slots in that secondary position.

As it has been stated by myself and others we are being penalized for using a cool feature because of the loss of energy health and other resists.
If during normal calm gameplay we want to use another item we can swap manual but these secondary slots are for battle positions to offer another strategy.
If I have to calculate what I will lose and then gain and have to do this for 4 characters it is quicker to never use the slots and just swap manual into one hand.

As they are designed now they are more hassle than they are worth in extreme pressure situations. MY assumption is they are intended to be used in those very circumstances where we are under heavy pressure to survive.

They are numerous methods of fixing it:

1: Add a timer when swap. 30 seconds then lose bonus. (The same amount of time it would approximately take to go off cd on something and be able to use that hand and manual swap from inventory into slot) added extra time for status effects.
2: Offer the ability to simply slot out a main hand rather than both. Which leaves at least the secondary in slot at all times.
3: Leave as is pre-patch. (Unfortunately this does not help the mage character who might want to swap to another utility and they lose massive mp from the swap from their main hand.

As it is most swaps require an added step of using a potion. Especially if it is taking away and adding in 50+ energy or health. Not to mention the loss of resists so you have to time the elemental hit then swap... meh
Aside from the screen annoyance of where the inventory blocks it is much simpler to use the inventory and swap as we did in LOG1 with the current design because added steps are needed with something that is intended to be a quick swap.

And as far as all this talk of abuse...
There are already ways to abuse the system and it does not involve figuring out a creative way to swap in and out items.
Either way as is and if they made it more user friendly would not break the game at all.
There is always things that can be added to make it better.
The slots do not work to speed anything up in battle compared to the old inventory swap which can be done with only one item rather than 2.
This makes no sense if they are intended to add a ease of use feature.

[Jgwman]

Woooah, this thread is high in salt content
I like Crow's suggestion #2 the best. You still lose the bonus if you switch out the buffed gear, but if you have the choice to just rotate one hand that would be nice. Fair compromise.

[Rithrin]

The OP is not requesting to have set bonuses for inactive items, nor is he requesting an "infinitely reusable health potion", as has been repeatedly claimed in this thread. The request is to not be arbitrarily penalized for using the built-in game feature of "alternate weapon slots" in a game where swapping items and inventory management is a prominent and important feature. If you are holding a +50 Health in one hand and have full HP, switch away from it, then switch back, you should remain at full HP. If you were holding that +50 Health item, but take damage for 75, switch away from the item, then back, you certainly should still have maximum HP minus 75.

What I would propose is that, when you remove any item that provides +Health or +Energy, there is a 2 to 3 second window where the game 'remembers' you were wearing the item and, if re-equipped during this small window, it would return you to your original values (minus any damage or energy use that may have occurred, obviously). No "infinitely reusable health potions" here, no set bonuses for inactive items here, just an actual reason to use those alternate hand slots.

That approach doesn't really work, since it would kill you for switching away from the item with less than 50 current HP. I can't think of a sensible approach other than keeping the character at the same percentage of max HP, such that putting on a +50 health item with 1/50 HP would leave you at 2/100 HP, and putting it on with 50/50 HP would leave you at 100/100 HP.

Because it's an abuse of items.

Let's take a look at what the weapon slots are. The active set are the characters 2 hand slots to place items in to use and the inactive set are 2 inventory slots reserved to quick-swap-in any preset items. In other words: the weapon sets slots are a comfort feature to spare the players the need to move items between character hands and characters inventory as they has to do in LoG1.

Right. They are an intentional feature added to the game that penalizes players for using it. Great design. It should definitely be changed in some way. Game devs are simply wasting company time and money if they design a feature that they don't intend on players ever using because they consciously made it worse than all other alternatives.

The proposed way is both a cheesy way to buff a badly hurt character instantly and a very dangerous way because the removal of a buff item by a weapon set switch can instantly kill(!) that character, depending on how low he/she is on total health. With the LoG way an accidental character death by removing a buff item is not possible.

Nowhere in the proposed changes allow for characters to be healed by equipping items or damaged by removing them. You are almost certainly deliberately misinterpreting posts. Feel free to read them again and quote where there is any proposed character death or healing via swapping equipped items.

As it is most swaps require an added step of using a potion. Especially if it is taking away and adding in 50+ energy or health. Not to mention the loss of resists so you have to time the elemental hit then swap... meh
(...)
Aside from the screen annoyance of where the inventory blocks it is much simpler to use the inventory and swap as we did in LOG1 with the current design because added steps are needed with something that is intended to be a quick swap.
(...)
The slots do not work to speed anything up in battle compared to the old inventory swap which can be done with only one item rather than 2.
This makes no sense if they are intended to add a ease of use feature.

Exactly, it's pretty ironic that an ease of use feature is both only barely, slightly easier than the traditional way of doing it, and then also punishes the player on top of it by damaging them.

2: Offer the ability to simply slot out a main hand rather than both. Which leaves at least the secondary in slot at all times.

Absolutely agree that this proposal is the best solution. It allows players to work around the 'loss of HP/Energy/set bonus' through smart swapping of items without actually changing any of the internal mechanics of the item system, and prevents people from constantly summoning up the spectre of "item abuse".

[Jgwman]

Well, there isn't NO reason to use the extra slots as is, they can still be pretty helpful. Dr did have some pretty good points though. The infinite healing thing he spoke of didn't really make sense, except that maybe he meant any time you were low health you could equip the item just for that fight (so it wasn't really infinite use, but could be a cheap life saver at the end of a fight). But the death thing made a lot of since; he meant that if you had 60/155 hp with the shield and then removed it, he would be at -15/80 hp and would in fact be dead, if I am correct in saying the earlier suggestions in this thread said that removing the shield would take 75 hp from max and current hp and add both back when re equipped, which really wouldn't be a good solution. But Crow's suggestions later could be valid.

[Rithrin]

Well, there isn't NO reason to use the extra slots as is, they can still be pretty helpful. Dr did have some pretty good points though. The infinite healing thing he spoke of didn't really make sense, except that maybe he meant any time you were low health you could equip the item just for that fight (so it wasn't really infinite use, but could be a cheap life saver at the end of a fight). But the death thing made a lot of since; he meant that if you had 60/155 hp with the shield and then removed it, he would be at -15/80 hp and would in fact be dead, if I am correct in saying the earlier suggestions in this thread said that removing the shield would take 75 hp from max and current hp and add both back when re equipped, which really wouldn't be a good solution. But Crow's suggestions later could be valid.

Well, if you equipped an item in the middle of a fight, it wouldn't magically give you health. You would still have to regenerate it, potion it, or visit a crystal. You wouldn't lose any health from unequipping the item, simply the maximum HP and, just like it is now, you would only 'lose health' if your current health was now lower than the new maximum. The game would merely remember for about 2 or 3 seconds upon removal of the item that you had health in excess of your current maximum when you re-equipped the item which increased your maximum health pool, and allow you to return to it provided you had not taken any additional damage. As an example: You are at 125/150 HP with a +50 health item in one hand. You swap items, and you are at 100/100, not because you received damage from removal of the item, but because your maximum health became lower than your current health. If in the next 2-3 seconds, you switch back to the same +50 health item, you would return to 125/150 because the game remembered that you had excess health and were wearing it previously. If you had been hit by a monster for 50 damage when you swapped the item away, you would be at 50/100, and equipping the item again would leave you at 50/150. Same for Energy. It's quite simple to understand, and there's no abuse involved. If you were about to die, you could not equip a +Health item and suddenly increase your current health because you were not wearing it 2-3 seconds prior.

Regardless, I would prefer Crow's solution anyhow because quick slots for each hand allows for better customization, but my solution addresses the underlying game mechanics that cause this problem.

[Jgwman]

I'm not really disagreeing with that. But I think the op said something different.

[FlashSoul]

Dr.Disaster, I don't know if you are only faking to misunderstand that to troll or if you genuinely can't grasp the concept. In hopes that the later is true, I will make one final post to, hopefully, explain it well enough for anyone.

Let's start with this...

I know exactly what you want: an instant +75 health item a.k.a. an infinitely reusable health potion.

This is false.

and this, which pisses me off a little bit I'll admit :

.. and i keep telling him and now you that this is not going to happen.

You are not part of Almost Human any more than we are. You have no right to dictate what can or cannot happen. This is simply disrespectful to everyone, especially Almost Human. It's not like we are suggesting to revert the bugfix.

The proposed way is both a cheesy way to buff a badly hurt character instantly and a very dangerous way because the removal of a buff item by a weapon set switch can instantly kill(!) that character, depending on how low he/she is on total health. With the LoG way an accidental character death by removing a buff item is not possible.

Not with what I propose, at least­. So here's the explanation, with a more formal approach :

BaseHealth : Health of a character without counting effects from a set bonus. Bound by 0 and BaseMaxHealth.
BaseMaxHealth : Maximum health of a character without counting effects from a set bonus.
SetHealth : Health gained gained and lost when activating/deactivating the set. Should be 0 on first activation. Bound by 0 and SetMaxHealth.
SetMaxHealth : Maximum health the set can "hold". example : 75
FinalHealth : The health the character will appear to have by including applicable bonuses.
FinalMaxHealth : The health maximum the character will appear to have by including applicable bonuses.

Scenario A - Set Active :
FinalHealth = BaseHealth + SetHealth
FinalMaxHealth = BaseMaxHealth + SetMaxHealth

Code: Select all

function Regenerate(int HPtoAdd){
   int baseMissing = BaseMaxHealth - BaseHealth;
   if (HPtoAdd < baseMissing){
      BaseHealth += HPtoAdd;
      HPtoAdd = 0;
   }
   else{
      BaseHealth = BaseMaxHealth;
      HPtoAdd -= baseMissing;
   }
   SetHealth += HPtoAdd;
   if (SetHealth > SetMaxHealth)
      SetHealth = SetMaxHealth;
}

Code: Select all

function Hurt(int HPtoRemove){
   if (HPtoRemove < SetHealth ){
      SetHealth -= HPtoRemove;
      HPtoRemove = 0;
   }
   else{
      HPtoRemove -= SetHealth;
      SetHealth = 0;
   }
   BaseHealth -= HPtoRemove;
}

Scenario B - Set inactive :
FinalHealth = BaseHealth
FinalMaxHealth = BaseMaxHealth

Code: Select all

function Regenerate(int HPtoAdd){
   BaseHealth += HPtoAdd;
   if (BaseHealth > BaseMaxHealth)
      BaseHealth = BaseMaxHealth;
}

Code: Select all

function Hurt(int HPtoRemove){
   BaseHealth -= HPtoRemove;
}

Here are some examples to help illustrate how it works :

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A with BaseHealth at 50 and BaseMaxHealth at 100 activates a set (SetMaxHealth at 75) which has been activated for the first time.
BaseHealth = 50
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 0
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 50 + 0 = 50
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A waits a minute and regenerates 40 HP.
BaseHealth = 90
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 0
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 90 + 0 = 90
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A waits another minute and regenerates 40 more HP.
BaseHealth = 100
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 30
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 100 + 30 = 130
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A receives an arrow in the knee which deals 129 DMG.
BaseHealth = 1
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 0
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 1 + 0 = 1
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A switches his hands' content to get his health potion, deactivating the set in the process.
BaseHealth = 1
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 0
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 1
FinalMaxHealth = 100
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A notices he forgot his potions at the inn and switches back to his shield.
BaseHealth = 1
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 0
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 1 + 0 = 1
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A dies from tripping while trying to run away.
BaseHealth = 0
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 0
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 0 + 0 = 0
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A is revived at FinalMaxHealth by a nearby priest.
BaseHealth = 100
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 75
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A switches to his empty hand to pray Yasd, the mighty god of noobs and deactivates his set.
BaseHealth = 100
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 75
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 100
FinalMaxHealth = 100
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Character A switches back to his shield, re-activating the set, for some more protection while he goes back to his daddy's farm because adventure isn't for him after all.
BaseHealth = 100
BaseMaxHealth = 100
SetHealth = 75
SetMaxHealth = 75
FinalHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
FinalMaxHealth = 100 + 75 = 175
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this cleared up any misunderstanding.

[Dr.Disaster]

Not with what I propose, at least­. So here's the explanation, with a more formal approach :

BaseHealth : Health of a character without counting effects from a set bonus. Bound by 0 and BaseMaxHealth.
BaseMaxHealth : Maximum health of a character without counting effects from a set bonus.
SetHealth : Health gained gained and lost when activating/deactivating the set. Should be 0 on first activation. Bound by 0 and SetMaxHealth.
SetMaxHealth : Maximum health the set can "hold". example : 75
FinalHealth : The health the character will appear to have by including applicable bonuses.
FinalMaxHealth : The health maximum the character will appear to have by including applicable bonuses.

Thx for showing your lack of knowledge about LoG's internal workings.

There are no "SetHealth", "SetMaxHealth", "FinalHealth" or "FinalMaxHealth" stats in the game.
There is just "Health" and "MaxHealth".

When equipping a bonus awarding item (or item-set) the game executes the code placed on that item (or item-set). Basically it does a "Champion:setStatMax(stat, value)" command.

In regard of the crystal armor set it adds 75 to the MaxHealth stat once the entire set it equipped. Upon breaking the set - a.k.a. removing any(!) item of the set from active use - it does the same: it substracts 75 from the MaxHealth stat and when now the MaxHealth stat is less than the current Health stat it is automatically adjusted accordingly.

Got it now?

[badhabit]

Thx for showing your lack of knowledge about LoG's internal workings.

*sigh*, he/she (a programmer obvious, due to his/her C choice) is proposing a better (correct one?) game mechanic model than the current simplistic AH one, which addresses your concern ("should not be a free health potion!") as his concern ("player should not be penalized for switching hands!") at the same time.