Grimrock

Azel wrote:Yeah that's super tempting. I did swap out my Human Farmer for a Ratling Farmer and very happy with the result.

How so? Just curious. Whole point of farmer is abusing food for +XP, and that extra +10% XP from Human Fast Learner trait adds up in my testing.

Put simply, does it seem like Mutation outweighs Fast Learner on a Farmer?

My Ratling Farmer is a support caster and so far his "random" mutation has been solely Wisdom/Vitality. There are items in the game you can wear to increase how much experience you gain, it works for a Farmer too while eating. Plus you do get to a point where the amount of exp needed to get to the next level is just so darn huge that the extra 10% from a Human doesn't really lessen the "grind." Plus you get all that Cheese

I wouldn't argue specifically in favor of Human over Rat or vice versa, pro's/con's on both sides. I have just been happy with the Ratling due to the favorable random mutation stats.

Gotcha. Well I definitely think 'the optimal party' will always include one Ratling, not only for the Mutation but disproportionately high amount of cheese in the game (relative to other foods). I also have a theory that the ratling mutation RNG algorithm creates probability bias based on user-picked stats. My ratling missile-weapons rogue ended with a *ton* of bonus dexterity from mutation on previous playthrough, and I've read of others experiencing similar. At lvl 14, at least 10 bonus attributes were Dex, 1 STR and the rest VIT, which worked out very well with ranged weapons and Alchemist class. Add in the cheeses and he had 35 dex @ Lvl 14!

Back to the "human or ratling" question for Farmer, here's something: My most recent party has a Human Farmer caster with Skilled & Fast Learner. Two hours into the game in Hardmode/Ironman/Single Use Crystals at Lost River, and my Farmer hit Level 10 and already slinging Meteor Storms, Force Fields, and casting Invisibility while the rest of my party is level 5. I did run for the +25% XP amulet in the vault first chance I got.

Then I went to the Herder Den and farmed herder caps for about half an hour. Farmer hit level 14 and casting every spell I want him to for the rest of the game. The rest of the party is level 8.

I still like Alchemist casters for their ability to both cast and grow herbs, but a Human Farmer Caster that goes 1 concentration -> 5 fire magic -> 3 air magic -> 2 concentration will help make at least the first half of the game a breeze no matter what challenging settings you have flipped on. Can also put 5 points into his Alchemy along the way, so the actual Alchemists don't have to waste points in Alchemy and can put them into their weapons/accuracy.

So in terms of pure leveling, I think Human has the edge as a Farmer due to Fast Learning, and reaching level 17, 18 and even 19 is not only feasible but practical. In my testing he will easily out-skill every character in the party at any given point of the game.

More on Farmers (this is an optimal-party thread, after all): The great and undocumented thing about gaining XP by eating as a Farmer, is that XP gained per food items scales linearly with each level, meaning he is still a level-gaining machine at higher levels, not even factoring Fast Learner and/or +25% XP amulet.

Here is a table expressing the food-xp growth for a Human Farmer with Fast Learner (+20% XP overall). This does NOT include the +25% XP amulet.

Format:
Level 0: X | N(T)
X = XP gained per Turtle Steak
N = # of Turtle Steaks needed to reach level from previous level
T = # of Turtle Steaks needed to reach level from level 1

Level 1: 298 | N/A
Level 2: 432 | 4(4)
Level 3: 572 | 5(9)
Level 4: 717 | 5(14)
Level 5: 866 | 6(20)
Level 6: 1017 | 6(26)
Level 7: 1172 | 6(32)
Level 8: 1328 | 6(38)
Level 9: 1486 | 6(44)
Level 10: 1646 | 6(50)
Level 11: 2114 | 6(56)
Level 12: 2277 | 10(66)
Level 13: 3055 | 11(76)
Level 14: 3220 | 16(92)
Level 15: 3387 | 16(108)
Level 16: 3555 | 15(123)
Level 17: 3724 | 14(137)
Level 18: 3895 | 27(164)
Level 19: 4066 | 25(189)
Level 20: .... | 123(312)

As you can see, the gaps between levels are MUCH smaller than for non-Farmers. You can easily reach an absurd level by just farming herder caps in the Herder Den boss room for an hour. Even if you don't farm herders, your farmer will almost always be several skill points ahead of the rest of the party. They still make poor melee characters due to a lack of any notable characteristics, but they make the best pure caster in the game because they will cast every spell you want sooner than any other class.

That's just glorious

I'd consider playing through it as a Human Farmer (my original setup) in this playthrough but I already named my Ratling, Lemmiwinks. Kinda committed now

Awesome analysis on the level gain difference between killing vs eating. I think that confirms for me that 2 Alchemists + a Farmer (instead of 3 Alchemists) is the way to go; with the 4th man being that powerhouse Mino Throwing Barb.

Azel wrote:I think that confirms for me that 2 Alchemists + a Farmer (instead of 3 Alchemists) is the way to go; with the 4th man being that powerhouse Mino Throwing Barb.

Agreed.

1 x Minotaur Barbarian (Throwing)
1 x Lizardman Alchemist (Heavy Weapons)
1 x Ratling Alchemist* (Casting, or DEX based Light Weapons -- your choice)
1 x Human Farmer (Primary Caster, Potion Brewmeister w/ +5 in Alchemy)

= kicking asses up and down the street for days and making the Island Master scream for his MA MA.

* One could argue a second Lizardman Alchemist instead of the Ratling Alchemist might bring more raw DPS power to the party as a Caster or a dual wielding Light Weapons guy, but to me a Ratling is just plain more fun thematically with the surprise factor of Mutation, and besides, someone has to eat all that cheese.

The builds I'm seeing in this thread are weak.

Best build is FOUR LIZARDMAN. Barbarians give +14 str by lvl 14. With an alchemist, playing for 15 hours = an extra 5 crystal flowers from walking, so you will need to play for about 45 hours in order to get the extra stat gain that a barbarian NORMALLY gets. Unless you're willing to grind like a moron, it's not worth it. The bigger problem is that stats are weak. An extra +1 dmg from strength is worthless. An extra 5 health from vit is worthless. An extra 5 mana from wisdom is worthless. The only good stat is dex, which gives +2 accuracy which means an extra 2% cheat to hit. +2% hit chance is the same as a +2% DPS increase.

Everyone should get to lvl 14 easily in a normal game, so that gives 15 total skill points (not including skill books):

lizardman 1 = barbarian, endure elements, martial training, +5 str and dex, heavy weapon x5, armor x4, accuracy x2, crit x4
lizardman 2 = barbarian, endure elements, martial training, +5 str and dex, heavy weapon x5, armor x4, accuracy x2, crit x4
lizardman 3 = barbarian, endure elements, martial training, +5 str and dex, light weapon x5, armor x2, accuracy x2, alchemy x5, crit x1
lizardman 3 = alchemist, endure elements, aura, +5 vit and wis, concentration x4, fire x5, air x3, dodgex3

In the endgame, this gets you:

*** 4 characters with 100% magic resist in fire, cold, poison, and lightning (due to equipment + books + stats)
*** 3 melee characters with very high DPS and chance to hit (give them dex potions; one person has meteor hammer + 15% cooldown bracer, the other heavy weapons person has the +10 accuracy bracer and bane)
*** 1 ranged utility magic user. The magic user does decent dmg, but your melee attacks will easily kill everything.

In the final fight against the dungeon master, you can just stand there and the last boss can't hurt you. The only things that can hurt you is physical damage, but you have 2 high health & defense tanks in the front.

Fire elementals do 0 damage. Ice elementals do 0 damage. Traps do 0 damage. The poison attacks in Crystal Mine does 0 damage. The giant golems in the desert do 0 fire damage. Seriously, using four lizardman makes Grimrock 2 an easy game because you will be immune to almost all damage.

=== Edit ===
Edit: this build was before the patch. After the patch, you'll need to change it in order to get 100% resist all

lizardman 1 = barbarian, endure elements, cold blooded, +5 str and dex, heavy weapon x5, armor x4, accuracy x3, crit x3
lizardman 2 = barbarian, endure elements, cold blooded, +5 str and dex, heavy weapon x5, armor x4, accuracy x3, crit x3
lizardman 3 = barbarian, endure elements, martial training, +5 str and dex, light weapon x5, armor x2, accuracy x2, alchemy x5, crit x1
lizardman 3 = alchemist, endure elements, aura, +5 vit and wis, concentration x4, fire x5, air x3, dodgex3

Your build sounds interesting, themell, but I would not want to try that at all. I dont think its stronger than whats been suggested but hey if you're enjoying it then thats all that matters.

A single stat boost is comparatively meaningless on overall performance. Get 5-10 of them together and things start to make a difference.

I might challenge your third character, Themell. Specifically, the decision to go with Light weapons over throwing. We know that dual wield suffers a 40% penalty to the base weapon damage per hand. I don't know if throwing suffers the same, but it doesn't seem to in preliminary testing. With the application of Armor 2, I'm assuming he's getting all the Bear gear for it's strength. You're already putting that massive strength to work for yourself via dual wielding. It would be more effective with throwing. If you do make this change, Martial Training might flip to Aggressive (+2-4 damage per hand, 4-8 damage total. The equivalent of +8 strength).

Themell definitely makes a solid case about the amazing resistances achievable with 4 Lizardman, that the Lizardman is one of the strongest races in the game in terms of base stats, and that Barbarian is one of the best classes due to the +1 STR at every level combined with the seeming fact that the game favors +STR based heavy weapons over all others. I also agree with Themell on the importance of +DEX relative to the other stats even on +STR focused characters - Accuracy is important, because if you're missing, you're wasting time. Screw +VIT, thats what health pots are for. I rather potentially kill a thing faster - glass Cannon all the way.

But I also agree with Dematto on themell's slot#3 and I'd question going into Light Weapons, when Mino Barb Headhunter Throwers exist - they're too much of a powerhouse to pass up for the extra resistances of Lizardman. Mino Barb starts out +5 STR more than Lizardman, and then factor the 9x skulls which are +9 STR, total +14 more STR the Mino Barb can get over a Lizard Barb. 3x Melee fighters is also too much dancing for my blood. I rather go 2x Melee + caster + thrower so I can kill things from range before they can touch me. I realize a lot of this comes down to personal style.

Starting another new game last night with A Mino Barb Thrower and once again its apparent how effective he is. He starts paying dividends immediately with consistent damage from the very first throwing knives found. Plus you can exploit the double-throwing somewhat at Throwing +5 by putting the faster cooldown throwable in the left hand (shuriken) and slower int he right (throwing axe) - the faster cooldown of the shuriken applies to both.