Grimrock

A quiver as a repository slot does not clutter the main interface.

I agree that a quiver is needed. To reach for your rucksack for each arrow is "un-archery-like" and non-ergonomical. And therefore makes archery somewhat obsolete. Why?

For example when you have two fighters in front row and mages in back row, the front row is probably using swords, axes etc.
The mages need a free hand to do their art, so they cannot normally use bow. For them either archery must be one handed, or there must be separate spell activating knob, or spell panel always visible. (Why is hand necessary to make a spell anyway?)

DM quiver system is tried and good. Perhaps a quiver should allow more arrows than four (counting one in hand, loading automatically when shot), but there might of course be balance issues.

First Regarding Exp.

Exp should go to the characters who attacked, not the slots that characters attacked from. Should be a fairly simple fix. That's really the only issue with Exp. You can hit groups of monsters from the side so your guys on the left hit the monsters on the right or vice-versa, but it's really not even worth worrying about.

Second Regarding Quivers.

I read all of these posts requesting quivers, multiple times even, and they simply make no sense to me at all. Just pretend the other hand is a quiver if you think it is more realistic, although I have shot actual bows in real life without wearing a quiver... and I held the arrow in my second hand. It makes me curious if you even know how bows work. If you want realism in a fantasy game that has magic, then you should only have one arrow in your hand at a time and you would have to grab a single arrow from your pack/quiver each shot. I can only imagine the complaints if they did this.

You may even be able to mod in a picture so the hand holding an arrow looks like a quiver if you can't get past the cosmetics of it. And as for archers attacking with other weapons, you can do that currently by equipping the desired weapon in their hands... so... huh?

oodyboo wrote:First Regarding Exp.

Exp should go to the characters who attacked, not the slots that characters attacked from. Should be a fairly simple fix. That's really the only issue with Exp. You can hit groups of monsters from the side so your guys on the left hit the monsters on the right or vice-versa, but it's really not even worth worrying about.

Second Regarding Quivers.

I read all of these posts requesting quivers, multiple times even, and they simply make no sense to me at all. Just pretend the other hand is a quiver if you think it is more realistic, although I have shot actual bows in real life without wearing a quiver... and I held the arrow in my second hand. It makes me curious if you even know how bows work. If you want realism in a fantasy game that has magic, then you should only have one arrow in your hand at a time and you would have to grab a single arrow from your pack/quiver each shot. I can only imagine the complaints if they did this.

You may even be able to mod in a picture so the hand holding an arrow looks like a quiver if you can't get past the cosmetics of it. And as for archers attacking with other weapons, you can do that currently by equipping the desired weapon in their hands... so... huh?

The essence of quiver: it is within easy reach. If you're right handed, your arrow hand is after shooting very near your right shoulder, where the quiver naturally is located. So "loading" a bow can be pretty quick in practice. For extreme firepower, watch traditional mongol archers in action, or in fantasy world, Legolas
The automatic loading of arrow in free hand *models* this. Of course there might be suitable cooling time. But compare this to clicking open the rucksack panel, finding arrow and putting it in your free hand. There are just too many clicks. I don't generally stand for automatic weapons, but there is a reason why rucksacks and quivers are different things.

As I said, two handed archery by mages requires separate spell interface.

Stamm wrote:As I said, two handed archery by mages requires separate spell interface.

Well, it would be pretty broken if mages could use Quivers; which is why I recommended that quiver users must meet certain skill level requirements.
Also, the quiver idea is really there to give rouges more fluidity in combat because switching the arrow for dagger/bomb/etc is not very practical. I don't understand why people think this is a bad idea. . .

Coffeeaddict~

Brodie301 wrote:The XP system is not "bugged or flawed"
I suggest you try this, I did just to negate all the bug/flaw crying here lately.

Start a new game and at EVERY monster encounter make sure that EVERY party member gets in at least one strike. The new game I started I leveled every char at the exact same time and stopped testing when they reached level 7 and by that time I was on floor 5.

As for the quiver I think the devs post above says it all!

Just give me more dungeons and leave the core game mechanics alone.

You didn't really understand the slot xp bug, did you? Mobs track the slot that hit them, not the character so if you switch slots mid-combat you might not get full xp on the characters that actually hit, but those that occupy slots that chars have made hits from. Nobody's crying except you and some other fanboys it seems to me...

Other than that the current XP system is a bit flawed because it is bad game design. It encourages silly behaviors instead of normal fighting. It's been well explained in other threads. Nothing big, but still not optimal.

I'd like to see quivers behave like bags, with slots for many arrows. The better the quiver the more slots it should have. Arrows should stack at 20-30 max (not unlimited stacking like now) per inventory slot (and per quiver slot too). The quiver would use a slot hierarchy for which slot it uses first, probably top to bottom (arrange slots in a vertical column). Magical quivers could add more slots or even faster bow firing rate. Auto-pickup arrows would go to quiver slots if available. This would solve the problem with used enchanted arrows not being auto-picked up because they lose their magic.

Another cool suggestion I heard was to make spell scrolls usable. Equip one in your mage's hand and you can cast its spell with a simple right click (no fussing with runes) as long as your mage can cast that spell normally.
This would make them more useful in subsequent play-throughs when you already know how to cast spells (or if you read spell lists on help sites).
My idea was to make runes accessible while mage is on cooldown so you can start preparing next spell, right after casting one.
Others suggested runes for last spell cast to be "saved" so next time you only need to press the "cast" button twice and not mess with runes unless you want to cast a different spell.

Oh and bags of holding in future dungeons with more loot would be cool.

coffeeaddict wrote: Also, the quiver idea is really there to give rouges more fluidity in combat because switching the arrow for dagger/bomb/etc is not very practical. I don't understand why people think this is a bad idea. . .
Coffeeaddict~

Actually I don't think there is need for switching arrow for dagger. You don't have enough skill points to invest in all three skills (Daggers, Missiles, Throwing) so you probably end up with one weapon type. For example if there's a Rogue, who has invested skill points in Missile Weapons, why would he want to swap arrows for a dagger or throwing axe? The skills system somewhat encourage players to use only one weapon type for whole game. Such quiver and the idea of switching to dagger would be more reasonable if, for example, missile/throwing weapons were less effective in close quarters combat. But fortunately it's not the case.

I've just finished game with my first party and there where 3 rogues in it so I have first-hand experience with rogues. One of those Rogues have Throwing Skills levelled up to almost 50 (BTW he killed the "bad guy" in final battle single handed). Even if I had a crossbow in second hand, and such off-hand quiver existed, I still would be clicking Throwing Axes (Attack Power 67 + double throw + fast throwing) rather then Crossbow (Attack Power 59 + no extra abilities).

coffeeaddict wrote:

Stamm wrote:As I said, two handed archery by mages requires separate spell interface.

Well, it would be pretty broken if mages could use Quivers; which is why I recommended that quiver users must meet certain skill level requirements.
Also, the quiver idea is really there to give rouges more fluidity in combat because switching the arrow for dagger/bomb/etc is not very practical. I don't understand why people think this is a bad idea. . .

Just because an idea is convenient, or even popular, does not mean it is a good idea. Rogues are not by any stretch of the imagination underpowered. Far from it - 4x Rogues is one of the strongest party setups in the game. Their micromanagement burden is squarely middle of the road - more than a fighter, less than a mage. A quiver would either solve no problem at all, or would solve a "problem" that is most likely an intended game balance decision. Rogues do not need multiple extra inventory slots handed to them in a game where inventory management is (or at least can be) a real challenge.

I'd much rather see the autopickup code fixed in some way so you will retrieve arrows you fired even if the do not match the ammo you are currently using because of enchantment being depleted when an arrow hits a foe, or conversely because of enchantment persisting when the arrow flies past a foe and lands without hitting a target. That is a far bigger annoyance to me than, er, whatever the problem is that a quiver is supposed to solve. Switching ammo types in mid combat? That's the only thing I can see that a quiver would help with.

***Original Post updated***

rakenan wrote:Just because an idea is convenient, or even popular, does not mean it is a good idea. Rogues are not by any stretch of the imagination underpowered.

Firstly, I never mentioned once in any of my posts that rogues are underpowered. It's a fact and we all know that a full party of rogues make hard mode look like child's play. I believe that developers will take action to resolve this unbalance; a simple reduction in dodge to % ratio will easily balance rogues with other classes.

rakenan wrote:I'd much rather see the autopickup code fixed in some way so you will retrieve arrows you fired even if the do not match the ammo you are currently using because of enchantment being depleted when an arrow hits a foe, or conversely because of enchantment persisting when the arrow flies past a foe and lands without hitting a target. That is a far bigger annoyance to me than, er, whatever the problem is that a quiver is supposed to solve. Switching ammo types in mid combat? That's the only thing I can see that a quiver would help with.

I agree with your suggestion that the autopickup code fixed to make everyone's lives easier. [Suggestion added]

~Restriction

Stamm wrote:A quiver as a repository slot does not clutter the main interface.

I agree that a quiver is needed. To reach for your rucksack for each arrow is "un-archery-like" and non-ergonomical. And therefore makes archery somewhat obsolete. Why?

For example when you have two fighters in front row and mages in back row, the front row is probably using swords, axes etc.
The mages need a free hand to do their art, so they cannot normally use bow. For them either archery must be one handed, or there must be separate spell activating knob, or spell panel always visible. (Why is hand necessary to make a spell anyway?)

DM quiver system is tried and good. Perhaps a quiver should allow more arrows than four (counting one in hand, loading automatically when shot), but there might of course be balance issues.

The mage does not need a free hand to cast a spell. Any wand or orb works just fine. However, a bow or crossbow is considered a 2-handed weapon for use, thus you must hold the arrows or bolts in the free hand to reflect this. If a quiver was introduced I think it should be held in the other hand, or if held in another slot the other hand should be grayed out while also holding a bow/crossbow, to reflect that no other item could be used simutaneously. The only use I can see of a quiver is to hold it in your off-hand, and be able to click it to select the preferred type of arrows or bolts to be used. Would be usefull, but not needed.

coffeeaddict wrote:Thanks for the reply everyone

M.M wrote:Great idea to have one joint thread for suggestions. No need to have tousands of small ones.
For Your suggestions - with Exp you are trying to Fix what isn't broken. Keep it as it is there is no real problem in here.

I personally think the exp is bugged; here is an example of how it works if it was real life; Credit is not given to the individual who made the most contribution but rather to whoever sits in the spot where the contribution was originally made. Which means you can pretty much take credit for a noble prize if you show up at the right place at the right time without actually making any contribution(s). Which is ridiculous xD
Coffeeaddict~

So what? i haven't even noticed the issue, and why on earth one would like to change position of people in group? I never even thought once about that. It only makes difference if someone wants 4 fighter run, but it could be helped much easier just by adding spear skill.

coffeeaddict wrote:

M.M wrote: For my suggestions:
add cleric class. It would cast spells based on non-elemental runes. He would specialise in indirerect spells (buffs, debuffs). Preferably it would came in two different flavours - Physicality clerik - similar to far east monks (unnarmed), and spirituality cleric similar western monks - could use dagger defence.
More spells and more balance between lores. I think earth magic should be more destructive - similar two fire or even better + poison effect, but being effective only against organic creatures - so no undead, golems, ummgardians, spirit etc.
I would also suggest more diversity in monsters behavoiur - like skeletons behind wall of shields being damn hard, something fast immune to siding, something else vulnurable to say cold, etc . It is to enforce more diversity in tactics.

Thanks for your input and I think it's an interesting idea, however there is currently too many heated discussions regarding mages using rune signs to cast spells. I think it's best to wait until the devs think of something to improve the spell casting system. Once that's sorted out, they can easily add a new skill tree for mages (Cleric, Support, etc). Regarding the mobs; i'm quite sure the devs are already working on adding more mob diversity to give players more choices (tactics) both in and out of combat.

Coffeeaddict~

I think rune system is fine. Nobody has to use mage, and poll in the other thread shows clearly that people are generaly happy with it.

Few new suggestions:
add spear skill. Spears are funny, and in most games the arent very popular. It would be cool to be able to use it as main weapon.

I really love the idea of skeleton legionaires. It is one of the things that got me hoocked in trailers ( i love ancient Rome).
what i consider really wierd however, is how poor their big shields are. The scutum was in fact an excellent shield, far better than standard round one used by Gals or Germans - in hands of trainded soldiers it allowed for making formiddable shield walls incluing famous turtle formation. And in Grimrock it is much worse than simple round wooden shield. On the other hand i understand that skeleton shields are centuries old now.
So the suggestion: make undead soldeirs tiered: ones with rotten legionairs shield, slightly damaged legionair shield, excellent condition shield etc. Same could go for spears.
IMHO those guys are (at least for me) the poster boys of LoG - and definetaly should be expanded upon - both in game terms and background. Perhaps add sceleton officer - quite strong, sword wieling undead, that casts buffs on legionairs and archers?

One more suggestion - how about adding ranger class? It is another classic, but i am aware that it would deduce from rogue class (bows), and i don't really know how to compensate. Perchaps by adding non combat skills such as lockpiking or trap detection, but know we are moving from DM style game into more of Realms of Arcania one.