Do pits play it to safe?

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

don't get me wrong. It's pretty cool to discuss things. But don't you think that "things" in this topic seem to revolve around a single idea with two different ideas of expectation, and the discussion won't change anything about this? Just curious where this discussion might lead you/ us ...

All the best!
Liam

[Stamm]

One "treasure" I would wish to find in pits is a rope, maybe even allowing climbing both down and up without damage.

[Jirodyne]

However, I think it would be nice if the casual player can trust the dungeon that he can happily make his way up or down the dungeon without purposely jumping down every single hole and not miss out on any loot or special treasure for doing so, not unless there was clear information that there's something to gain from jumping down a specific pit.

I don't think any pit should be a dead end. Sure, we can load and save, but having to rely on that quite breaks the suspension of disbelief. I do think we should be able to continue the game from any point without getting ourselves stuck (with the exception of course of being surrounded by monsters while health is getting low).

Ok. These 2 points.

First one. Every game that has side stories, side plots, side ideas, anything outside of the main area.... Always has secrets and more stuff. That is the REASON to go out and explore and not just follow the main story/quest/areas alone. You CAN go through the game from beginning to end and never find any secret except the ones needed to progress the level. But will be weaker and less prepared. Side areas, like down in the pits, are meant for extra stuff. The player decides to explore those area. They take time out of their quest for madness and power, to explore something new, think outside the box even.... and you don't want them rewarded for it?

What about the players that DO want an edge in the game? It's not completionists we need to talk about. They will do everything and anything. But a casual player does not HAVE to jump down the pit, to win. They get an edge, extra potions, better equipment, and stuff. If they can get all of it by completing the main story..... Then what is the POINT of the side areas? Like you said, only completionists would go down them then, and they won't get ANYTHING for it! not even an achievement.

This is basically what your saying. Ahem.... A player has a choice, go down set easy path of the main, or explore and go down the hard path. Those that go down the hard path however, will not be rewarded in any way, a waste of time, and would be common sense to ignore those ideas that the creator of the dungeon worked extra time into in making.

Onward to the second part.... If the players can trust the dungeon, and know there is no challenge, you the creator are doing something wrong. A dungeon, in every sense of the word, means danger, reward, mystery, death, and excitement. If they aren't dieing at least once every 30 mins, where is the fun?! Also they will never learn. Especially the idea of saving often and in different slots. They won't learn that, if nothing makes them learn it.

[Thels]

However, I think it would be nice if the casual player can trust the dungeon that he can happily make his way up or down the dungeon without purposely jumping down every single hole and not miss out on any loot or special treasure for doing so, not unless there was clear information that there's something to gain from jumping down a specific pit.

I don't think any pit should be a dead end. Sure, we can load and save, but having to rely on that quite breaks the suspension of disbelief. I do think we should be able to continue the game from any point without getting ourselves stuck (with the exception of course of being surrounded by monsters while health is getting low).

Ok. These 2 points.

First one. Every game that has side stories, side plots, side ideas, anything outside of the main area.... Always has secrets and more stuff. That is the REASON to go out and explore and not just follow the main story/quest/areas alone. You CAN go through the game from beginning to end and never find any secret except the ones needed to progress the level. But will be weaker and less prepared. Side areas, like down in the pits, are meant for extra stuff. The player decides to explore those area. They take time out of their quest for madness and power, to explore something new, think outside the box even.... and you don't want them rewarded for it?

What about the players that DO want an edge in the game? It's not completionists we need to talk about. They will do everything and anything. But a casual player does not HAVE to jump down the pit, to win. They get an edge, extra potions, better equipment, and stuff. If they can get all of it by completing the main story..... Then what is the POINT of the side areas? Like you said, only completionists would go down them then, and they won't get ANYTHING for it! not even an achievement.

This is basically what your saying. Ahem.... A player has a choice, go down set easy path of the main, or explore and go down the hard path. Those that go down the hard path however, will not be rewarded in any way, a waste of time, and would be common sense to ignore those ideas that the creator of the dungeon worked extra time into in making.

"Hard part"?

Jumping down a pit is not "hard part". It's just silly to toss half your life away at every pit you encounter, grab the goodies, and use the teleporter to get back. "Hard part" would be more like level 8, which is initially very small, but if you actually find the secret entrance from level 7, and then crawl your way through all the optional areas of the map, you'll get rewarded nicely.

Pits are supposed to be a hazard, something you're trying to avoid, because they deal a lot of damage and might set you quite a bit back in your advancement. Puzzles should focus around passing pits without falling into them.

Grimrock simply makes jumping down pits practically mandatory. The game uses the pits as passageways, rather than obstacles. There is really nothing exciting about it. If we are meant to explore those areas, I'd rather see stairs than pits.

Onward to the second part.... If the players can trust the dungeon, and know there is no challenge, you the creator are doing something wrong. A dungeon, in every sense of the word, means danger, reward, mystery, death, and excitement. If they aren't dieing at least once every 30 mins, where is the fun?! Also they will never learn. Especially the idea of saving often and in different slots. They won't learn that, if nothing makes them learn it.

You make a very big jump from "I can trust the creator of the dungeon that I will not be rewarded for doing stupid stuff, like jumping down every pit I come across." to "There should be no challenge whatsoever in the dungeon."

[DJK]

Jumping down a pit is not "hard part". It's just silly to toss half your life away at every pit you encounter, grab the goodies, and use the teleporter to get back. "Hard part" would be more like level 8, which is initially very small, but if you actually find the secret entrance from level 7, and then crawl your way through all the optional areas of the map, you'll get rewarded nicely.

I have to agree here.. for the VAST majority of LoG pits have NOTHING to do with "hard"..which is exactly my problem in the first place... nothing hard abut jumping down resting, grabbing the loot and take teleporter back up conveniently really close to where you jumped in... there is no denying the LoG designers ENCOURAGE the player to jump down each and every pit... they even make a joke about it with a note in one of the pits saying

"I know, I was just as suprised as you are to find nothing down here, Thoorum"

[Dr.Disaster]

Ok before I get flamed, yes I DO like this game .. However there is one thing that bothers me a little... "pits". For those that played Eye of the Beholder you'll understand what I mean... pits in my eyes play it to safe... instead of a thing to fear they become something to "let's check out what's down here, because well ... there might be... and besides, there will be a convenient teleporter or stair back up anyway"

Well i played EotB 1 to 3 right on their releases in the hope to get a Dungeon Master match-up for PC and i can't back you up in any of your points made. Actually i found that the mentioned spider lvl was the first thing close to a challenge because in my opinion EotB was way too easy.

In any dungeon crawler jumping down the pits belongs to the process of discovering stuff. Now what a dungeon designer makes out of pits is up to their imagination.

SpoilerShow

For example Chaos Strikes Back had pits spanning the entire dungeon from top to bottom. Jumping or falling down these pits caused damage for each floor falling thru. Even if the party (all or some) survived the fall the chars got badly damaged and injured plus they had to face a bunch of dragons down there. Only a really strong party in dire need for food was willing to take this jump on purpose after the initial discovery.

Then again: there is always room to make things more nasty with/in expansion dungeons

[Goffmog]

The pits in DM and CSB were scary things and only in one or two places ever led to anything good. Quite often you'd get thrown into a hard part of the level below, your spellcaster would die in the fall so you'd lose your light and have no idea where you were, let alone where the nearest stairs/food/water or resurrection alter were! If you were really unlucky you'd fall through two layers of pits

I barely remember pits in EotB, I do think the first one was the most difficult of the EotB games, mostly due to the mazelike level design in the Dwarf and Drow parts. I don't know if I can honestly comment on which is the more difficult game between EotB and DM. EotB confounded me in the Dwarf level when I first played it at the age of 11 or 12, I completed DM around the same time but I'd been working away at it since I was 8 or 9. I didn't complete the first EotB until many years later on an emulator

[DJK]

Tbh I though Eye1 was suffieciently difficult you sure you didn't "customize" your starting party and altered your "roll" to perfect stats ? (which does make it pretty easy)..

[Isaac]

I didn't complete the first EotB until many years later on an emulator

I don't understand it... can't easily visualize it, but I once read an account by this guy who said it took him five years to complete EOB1.

[Dr.Disaster]

Tbh I though Eye1 was suffieciently difficult you sure you didn't "customize" your starting party and altered your "roll" to perfect stats ? (which does make it pretty easy)..

Can't recall; that was 17 years ago .. Correction: it was 21 years ago!

It was 17 years ago when i archived the game off of my HDD.
All my save games seen to be on a 5.25" floppy which i can't access anymore due to missing the drive