"Backwards-compatible" Vitality

[seebs]

I can't tell whether you're dishonest or just not paying attention.

Someone claimed that the order in which you developed skills had a significant impact on overall health. You claimed it was "maybe 10-15 HP". Actually, it's more like 90. You then made various excuses, brought up irrelevant analogies, and otherwise tried to avoid the obvious fact that you made a simple fact claim that was in fact wrong.

If you don't care about numbers, and can't be bothered to get them right, maybe you shouldn't be telling everyone else what they should think about the numbers?

[dbgager]

LIke I said about 5 times already if you want that character go for it..If you think I'm going to agree with you ..not a chance. SO get irritated..rant ..whatever. No skin off my back.

You people think there going to change the entire game system because 5-6 of you are on here ranting day after day..Its not going to happen.

Minor changes..maybe..Major changes are not going to happen.

[dbgager]

Your the one who should actually play the game to the end before making assumptions on how the system will work as your vitality rises.

From the post I was referring to:

"Unless they're lying to us vitality/willpower also increases the amount gained pr level, dunno by how much. However I had a 20 vit mino and 16 vit human fighter. The mino ended on 211 and the human on 196 hp (without any equipment influencing it). I know I leveled athletics to 5 for the +2 vit early on the human, but don't know how much of a difference that made."

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1615

[Elderian]

Hi,

LIke I said about 5 times already if you want that character go for it..If you think I'm going to agree with you ..not a chance. SO get irritated..rant ..whatever. No skin off my back.

you are still completely ignoring the point: By now, everybody knows how to get a character with high vitality. It is just the way to get there, which is disliked.
And i remember from my old pen&paper days, that i hated this rolling for the HP increase. But in an pen&paper game, it is not that bad, because the GM is taking care of you and rather won't let you die just because you got a few lucky hits. But the computer is not that forgiving.

You people think there going to change the entire game system because 5-6 of you are on here ranting day after day..Its not going to happen.

I guess that are more people, who might not like it when they know how it works. And how big the change will be is a question of what mechanic it should be changed to, not of how it is now.

And i think nobody expects the game to change now, we (adding me to the group) are only wanting to know how the game works.
The question of the thread starter simply was: Is the health system depending on VIT for every level up? And yes it is.

I am enjoying the game in easy mode now, and i like the pace in which the fights are done. But nonetheless i had to reload some times because a part of my group was killed (spiders...)
But if i take on the game a second time in hard mode, the characters better be prepared...

Elderian

[ribaldron]

Holy cow dbagger you need to take your own advice.

We'll level up our characters how we like, and you're forever welcome to do the same.



We all obviously have a difference of opinion, why don't you let us express it?




Would you agree that if you had two characters with the exact same statistics but one went Vitality first, while the other went STR/DEX, that the one who went Vitality first will have a load more HP while being just as effective in combat as the other? Does this make sense to you and don't reply "JEEZ U RETARD GO HP IF U WANT OR GO STR IF U WANT!" because you have already said that a hundred times and that has no bearing on this conversation whatsoever.

[Drax]

Level 12 Insect Mage with 12 Vitality has 74hp, level 12 lizard rogue with 11 Vitality has 63hp. They both started with the exact same Vitality, so at some point over the course of the game they've drifted 1 apart, resulting in a 9hp increase.

Different party:
Level 12 Mino fighter, 21 Vitality and 217hp. Level 12 human fighter, 21 vitality, 220hp. Human started with +2 vitality perk, leading to a 3hp difference over the course of the game.

Different party again:
Level 12 Insect Mage, level 12, 12 Vitality has 80hp(note difference from first Insect mage). Level 12 lizard rogue, 14 vitality, 113hp. That's a 33hp increase despite the fact they both started once again with the same vitality. Presumably the Rogue got "lucky" and had a vitality boost earlier on.

3 different parties, similar members in each, very different results. Random isn't cool.

[Smaug]

The vitality system is flawed and its bad game design. While many things in gaming have evolved to a negative, overcoming this mechanic was actually something from the positive side: Ensuring that the choice to raise VIT when the player has already progressed to the lategame is still a choice that will offer enough benefits thus making it a valid choice. Next to that, removing random character generation factors helps to design the game content, which is always good for someone balancing a game, and additionally it removes the odds of a player getting stuck, because of terrible bad luck.... ...computer RNGs can do funny things, and there will be people out there who roll extremely bad. The player experience will suffer but the player does not understand why, as it is a degenerating process and not a "good choice/bad choice" situation with a learning effect.

Yes, there is no bible for making games. And yes, you are entitled to vote for the oldschool VIT system, and defend it like a maniac (cause thats the impression you make here). If you like shit, you like shit. Its okay. Doesnt mean you have to convinve other people that shit is good.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's flawed and bad game design, or that it is shit. It's the way they designed and balanced the game. I hadn't even noticed that it was this way until this topic was created. It's good to know, but I think it's good to know all the mechanics so you can make informed desicions at creation and level up.

If they add a check box similar to what they did for old school mode that's great for those that want it, but it's not something I will use. I think Baldur's Gate or Baldur's Gate 2 had an option like this, but I don't remember for sure.

No, I really like the system, but it is still flawed. I just love oldschool stuff. Because I am a gamer from the 80s. Though it is still bad game design.


Given the following situation:

The player is near the end of the game, around dungeon level 10+. He is about to level up for the last one or two times. Player's thought: I am going to face the endboss soon, and my tank is dying too quickly. I will raise VIT.

Player's expectation: This will have an impact on the survival of his tank.

Player's assumption: The game will not offer me a totally worthless character development option.

Player's actual experience: Character will not take much more of a beating than before.


Problems:
-No clear communication about this mechanic to the player (except for a tooltip) and no guidance by the game to raise player awareness about making a very bad choice (Usability / Accessibilty Issue = Bad
gamedesign).

-VIT is incosistent with other skills. Expectation are created by observing the other skills and applying that logic to VIT. A consistent system would raise attack value and damage value per level up, dependend on DEX respectively STR. (Incosistencies need to be explicitely pointed out = Bad gamedesign).

-In the lategame the player could maneuver himself into a frustrating game experience (loosing, facing a very harsh difficulty) not by having made bad choices, but by lack of knowledge and confusing incosistencies (Bad gamedesign).


However, there is no bad gamedesign. A game is a form of art, and art is subjective to the observer.

Yet, if you read the conventions that game designers agree on (google the books) this would indeed be generally seen as a bad game design in terms of usability and accessibility.

I have no problem with this "oldschool approach", as I played DM, CSB, EotB and all that stuff...but many new players haven't. And they expect the achievements of modern insights into making games to be applied to a game in 2012.



-

[steelsoldier]

Doesnt the fighter start with 60hp, the rogue with 45 and the mage with 35?

[seebs]

Doesnt the fighter start with 60hp, the rogue with 45 and the mage with 35?

Something like that. There's also a change based on starting vitality - each point of vitality gives 2.5 base health, rounded down. (So it's 60, 62, 65, 67, 70...)

[dbgager]

No..THats exactly how I will reply..because that is how the game works.Like I said already its called a CHOICE. Also its a freaking game..genius. YOu think you get some kind of award for developing a character with a lot of HP. You are trying to develop in a way to be able to survive. YOu can not have both max HPS or max attack. You pick between the 2 of them. BAd game design...lol. You stat freaks , have played to much WOW, you don't know a thing about old school.

HPs are not even that important. unless you have totally no keyboard skills, and can only stand toe to toe with an enemy, with zero movement. Develop some actual game skills, and stop trying to make the game compensate for your lack of skill.

I am enjoying the game, and developing my characters to survive in the dungeon. I will finish the game with no problem. I will enjoy every minute of it. And if you can do that , the GAME is a success. People like you have forgotten that fun is why we play games. Bad game design..what an idiot.

I would hope the developers are smart enough to not turn this into another iteration of modern gaming. The fact that they went old school is why this game is so popular. I am confident that they will totally ignore the stat geeks.